Perhaps just as importantly, can a native speaker ever really understand a language?
During my life I have attempted numerous times to learn other languages. I took classes in Spanish in elementary, Japanese in middle school, French in secondary school, and I am teaching myself Latin in my free time.
None of these endeavors I attempted in order to understand the language. In fact, all but Spanish I have taken specifically in the hopes of being able to understand English better. It seems to be working. Learning so many word roots, as well as how other languages form sentences, paragraphs, ans ideas I feel has aided my understanding of the one language I speak fluently.
All that being said I don't know if I will every be able to truly understand English, just because of how much is always lost in any transmission of information between two people.
It becomes even more difficult in another language. In my current French class I oft revert to speaking English, or using English words, just because I don't know enough. I can imagine that that will always be the case too, I just have such a huge head-start on English, that it is quite possibly impossible to catch up.
I am still working on my second language, so I can't answer this as knowledgeably as if I were bilingual, but at least where I am now, there is no way I gain knowledge in German as easily as I do in English. Likewise, when I do understand the meanings of the words, it is really the meanings of the English words that I've learned to associate with the German counterparts rather than the essence of the German word. Even when I speak German, it is to express a train of thought that originated in English. Therefore I do not pick up on the nuances of German that are not translateable. So from my own experience, no, a non-native speaker cannot gain as much knowledge as a native speaker. But what if that non-native speaker moved to wherever that language was spoken, and immersed themself in the language and culture, examining the nuances for years and years? Would they ever reach the level of comprehension of a native speaker? I think so, although I am limited by my hope that such a level of fluency is achievable. Like Mr. Songhurst already adressed, learning another language has so far proved most effective in improving my understanding of English. So many times I notice word roots and interlinguistic and structural similarities that enhance how I look at my own language. I don't know that anyone can fully understand any language, even their first. It seems like there are always subtle ways to manipulate a language that not even all the native speakers pick up on.
In my English class we're studying an English translation of The Stranger, which was originally French. Although Camus' book is helping us learn a lot about existentialism, one of the big limitations of reading/studying literature in different language is the fact that is was originally written in a different language.
There are some words distributed through the novel that are absolutely vital to our understanding of the novel's overall message. Due to our inability to interpret/understand the exact meaning of these words, our understanding of the book is limited; although we can make educated guesses about what was said, our answer is uncertain.
Languages have certain concepts associated with their words that just cannot be explained in any other term but unspoken knowledge. The Spanish word, 'amigo', for example, is, simply translated, a word for 'friend'... but really, the word has a lot more cultural importance than can be explained with the English language. And because of that inability to describe the word's real meaning, those who do not speak Spanish fluently lose the real meaning of the word.
Based off this, the language barrier, or rather, the barrier between cultures (that is specifically caused by language) inhibits how much we can actually understand people from different cultures and essentially, those cultures in themselves.
I believe that intense cultural emersion is required to fully understand a language. Like Rachel said, there are so many different ways to interpret a language, so many different forms. Sarcasm, cliche's, metaphors, and so forth are all language specific, and can truly only be understood if one lives in an environment where they are surrounded by such linguistic things constantly. I have a friend who is from the Isle of Man off the coast of England, and when I spoke to him recently, it was at first a little difficult. His dialect is so different, and even his use of the English language differs. It was odd, having the experiance of speaking to someone in the same language, but still having the difficulty of understanding him. However, I still got the gist of it. I think that body language and intonation play a really important role in how we communicate. We rely on our sense percentions to tell us how those around us feel. Through this use of body language, I believe that we lose less of an understanding than may be thought. Where language is concerned, however, I think that things can be lost in the translation. Much of translation depends on whether it is spoken or written as well. In my theatre class, a group of actors recently translated a script into Spanish from English. The director of the piece did the translation, and then asked native Spanish speakers to go over it and make the necessary corrections. When the script came back, it was covered in corrections. The director asked what she had done wrong, and she was told nothing. Her translation was fine. It was just that the way people speak and the way people write are very different. Spanish has its own spoken nuances, and therefore the script changed as the words needed to be spoken, not read.
Going back to what Mr. Pseudonym said, I don't think a native speaker can completely learn a language, let alone a non-native speaker. This is becuase when it comes to a language, it isn't the same for every country or region that uses it. There are always multiple dialects that develop which cause words to either have different meanings or be none existent in different cultures. For example, though I might have a pretty good understanding of the English language where I live, there are probably 1000s of words that are unfamiliar to me in England, even though the same language is technically spoken there. The meaning of a language also changes with different generations. I doubt anybody used 'sick' or 'sweet' to describe something cool back in the 1920's and we don't really say 'swell' anymore, now do we? My point is, complete understanding of a language would be possible if it was universal. Becuase that is never the case, I don't think it's ever possible for anyone (native speakers or non-native speakers) to fully understand a language. The best we can do is get as close as we can.
Hmm...interesting question. From my experience, I can honestly say that I don't think I'll ever understand Spanish, even though I've taken it for 5 years in school now. Within any language, there are so many idiosyncrasies (like slang, use of pronouns, expressions, etc.) that it would take years to even begin to comprehend them, especially since some do not match up with one's native language at all. Take for example in my Spanish class. A couple weeks ago, we learned about certain expressions in Spanish that differ from our own. One was "Solo estoy tomando el pelo," which literally translates to "I'm only pulling your hair," and it is used just like the English "I'm just pulling your leg." Hair and leg? How did those ever get mixed up? I'm sure this applies in many other languages, as well, and things really get hard when pronunciation is dragged into the picture. Also, building on what Rachel said, you're not really catching the fine details of the language: you're speaking your native language in your mind and translating it over to the second language by using the words you've been taught to associate the second language words to in your own language (sorry if that didn't make any sense whatsoever). You may be missing the real meaning of the word because it was just assigned it's closest counterpart in your language. However, I think if you study that other language for long enough, you will start to understand it, maybe even fully much later in life. So yes, I do believe that non-native speakers can eventually understand another language, but it takes quite a while, and with the attention span of most people these days, it's not very likely to happen.
I think that non native speakers can understand another language to a certain extent. We may understand the word someone may be trying get across but its full meaning isn't fully absorbed. What is really lost in translation I think is what I said before, which is true meaning. That is what we are trying to get across.
i think that you can not master a second language because the way you exprees yourself in your first language will not be the same in your second language. i learned this through my spanish class. i am an english speaker that is hispanic but i do not understand spanish at all. (which is sad) i think that learning a language has to happen with teaching and exposure to the people and culture of the language you are learning. You need to have immense exposure in order to learn the way the language is spoken by the people of the country. Without the exposure you may never be able to fully understand the language and therefore a lot is lost in translation.
Well, in my opinion a second language can not truely be mastered. For the fact that a native speaker of english thinks in english. So take me for example I've been taking spanish for four years and when I see spanish i think in english about what it means. My emotions and feeling are in english so i could never have that emotional background with the second language. Also, when learning a language the basic is learned, but as in english a sentence can mean a complete different thing with just a change of tense or tone, and if we don't recognize that change we don't fully interpret the language correctly.
Dewayne Perkins Curie High School Chicago, IL, USA
i think that a non native speaker cant really understand a second language as well as their first. even if we may think we understand the language because we learned how to speak it, we will only understand it to some extent.
I believe that understanding something is beyond the understanding of the language. it is more about relating to what the sutiation is. Translation would really take away from the understanding but everyone is their own person and therefore will translate on their own regardless. got to go
I believe once we adapt to our first language, it is hard for us to understand second or third language. That is because we cannot get rid of the cultures that we learned before. It is a mess if cultures mix together
I believe that non-native speakers can understand another language to a large extent. Immigrating from Poland at a young age with little knowledge of the English language, I never thought I'd be able to learn it. However, I soon discovered this to be wrong. If you put your mind to it, you can truly learn another language.
I believe once we adapt to our first language, it is hard for us to understand second or third language. That is because we cannot get rid of the cultures that we learned before. It is a mess if cultures mix together.
Shu Chen Curie Metr. High School Chicago, il U.S.A
I believe that a non native speaker can understand another language. I currently speak 2 languages fluently and understand the both perfectly. (Spanish and English) Of course I did learn these languages at a young age and I don't not know how I would react to a new language at this age. Ricky Valdez Curie Metr. High School Chicago, il U.S.A
Personally I think that no one can master a language at all. Language changes so rapidly from year to year. We may not be able to see it but every year there are new words. "Cool" a couple years ago was a new word. Then it became the regular slang. Now I see it being used in regular language by the most intellectual people I know. Words are created and words are dropped. Even the syntax of our sentenses change. (Ex. Old English-->Classical English-->Modern English) So can anyone possibly MASTER a language?
I believe the non native language speakers can, at some point, be on the same level as the native language speakers in terms of their ability to read, write, think, and process their thoughts with ease, and without having to translate into their primary language in order to understand it. English is not my first language, and i might not be able to speak it perfectly, but i can certainly utilize it at the standard of most of the english speakers.
All of your comments are really enlightening. I really enjoy and thank all of the people that posted from Curie High School. It was really interesting getting a different perspective on questions.
It seems after reading all of your comments that the real question is when languages are learned. I do agree that the "true" meaning of a word may be lost in translation, but at what age? As stated in other comments the age at which you learn languages and the environment plays a big role in a person's understanding of a "true" meaning.
I do not know two languages so I will take on a hypothetical situation.
What if there is a person that was born and grew up in two different cultures? The person may live in one culture, like Chinatown, for three days and in another, Little Italy the rest of the week. I would believe that this person would grow up learning the slang and understand fully the "true" meaning of both worlds. Do you agree or disagree? Explain your rationale.
Then take another example of differences in language. People who have different accents. I know quite a few people that have been born in the Southern region of the USA and have moved to another region of the USA. What is interesting about them is that they can easily speak in the regions accent and then switch almost automatically when exposed to another region's accent. In this case, technically the language is the same, but the pronunciation is different and maybe even the words. Is this so different from understanding different languages?
Exg: Using a word to describe carbonated beverages. In Florida they use the word "coke," while in Colorado they use "pop." This label is different but the object is the same.
I think we can get to a point where we understand a language when we reach the point where we think in that other language. I have been learning French for a very long time and I picked up a French magazine and started reading it without realising it was French, when you get to the point where you are no longer conscience off a translation then I think you can truly be said to understand the language. ( my brother asked to read it and asked why I had been reading in French - but I just hadn't noticed that it was French)
We talked about this in ToK recently because we were reading Jean-Dominique Bauby's The Diving Bell and the Butterfly which was originally in French and about Bauby's time when he was suffering from "locked-in syndrome". The only movement he could do was blink his left eye, and that is how he communicated. So many things that he wanted to say was lost because some people didn't know his system of communicating or he forgot what he wanted to say because it took a long time to spell out the words. To talk about this in class, my teacher brought up how advertisements in the United States can't always work because of translation. An example she gave was a pepsi slogan. In the United States it was "Come alive with Pepsi!". In China, it said "Pepsi brings your ancestors back!" Also, when I was in France recently, some of the things in the hotel rooms were also in English and one thing said "If you have a problem, call us. If we do not respond to your request in 15 minutes, you will be our guest". Which makes no sense. Non-native speakers also have a hard time with idioms, because what may be said in their country is different from what is said in another. Because it's not the same, they may take it literally. A lot of meaning is lost in translation, and that is why it is so hard to do for books and other things.
21 comments:
Perhaps just as importantly, can a native speaker ever really understand a language?
During my life I have attempted numerous times to learn other languages. I took classes in Spanish in elementary, Japanese in middle school, French in secondary school, and I am teaching myself Latin in my free time.
None of these endeavors I attempted in order to understand the language. In fact, all but Spanish I have taken specifically in the hopes of being able to understand English better. It seems to be working. Learning so many word roots, as well as how other languages form sentences, paragraphs, ans ideas I feel has aided my understanding of the one language I speak fluently.
All that being said I don't know if I will every be able to truly understand English, just because of how much is always lost in any transmission of information between two people.
It becomes even more difficult in another language. In my current French class I oft revert to speaking English, or using English words, just because I don't know enough. I can imagine that that will always be the case too, I just have such a huge head-start on English, that it is quite possibly impossible to catch up.
Mr. Songhurst
Poudre High School, USA
I am still working on my second language, so I can't answer this as knowledgeably as if I were bilingual, but at least where I am now, there is no way I gain knowledge in German as easily as I do in English. Likewise, when I do understand the meanings of the words, it is really the meanings of the English words that I've learned to associate with the German counterparts rather than the essence of the German word. Even when I speak German, it is to express a train of thought that originated in English. Therefore I do not pick up on the nuances of German that are not translateable. So from my own experience, no, a non-native speaker cannot gain as much knowledge as a native speaker. But what if that non-native speaker moved to wherever that language was spoken, and immersed themself in the language and culture, examining the nuances for years and years? Would they ever reach the level of comprehension of a native speaker? I think so, although I am limited by my hope that such a level of fluency is achievable. Like Mr. Songhurst already adressed, learning another language has so far proved most effective in improving my understanding of English. So many times I notice word roots and interlinguistic and structural similarities that enhance how I look at my own language. I don't know that anyone can fully understand any language, even their first. It seems like there are always subtle ways to manipulate a language that not even all the native speakers pick up on.
Rachel Dean
Poudre High School, USA
In my English class we're studying an English translation of The Stranger, which was originally French. Although Camus' book is helping us learn a lot about existentialism, one of the big limitations of reading/studying literature in different language is the fact that is was originally written in a different language.
There are some words distributed through the novel that are absolutely vital to our understanding of the novel's overall message. Due to our inability to interpret/understand the exact meaning of these words, our understanding of the book is limited; although we can make educated guesses about what was said, our answer is uncertain.
Languages have certain concepts associated with their words that just cannot be explained in any other term but unspoken knowledge. The Spanish word, 'amigo', for example, is, simply translated, a word for 'friend'... but really, the word has a lot more cultural importance than can be explained with the English language. And because of that inability to describe the word's real meaning, those who do not speak Spanish fluently lose the real meaning of the word.
Based off this, the language barrier, or rather, the barrier between cultures (that is specifically caused by language) inhibits how much we can actually understand people from different cultures and essentially, those cultures in themselves.
Anupama M.
Poudre High School, USA
I believe that intense cultural emersion is required to fully understand a language. Like Rachel said, there are so many different ways to interpret a language, so many different forms. Sarcasm, cliche's, metaphors, and so forth are all language specific, and can truly only be understood if one lives in an environment where they are surrounded by such linguistic things constantly. I have a friend who is from the Isle of Man off the coast of England, and when I spoke to him recently, it was at first a little difficult. His dialect is so different, and even his use of the English language differs. It was odd, having the experiance of speaking to someone in the same language, but still having the difficulty of understanding him. However, I still got the gist of it. I think that body language and intonation play a really important role in how we communicate. We rely on our sense percentions to tell us how those around us feel. Through this use of body language, I believe that we lose less of an understanding than may be thought. Where language is concerned, however, I think that things can be lost in the translation. Much of translation depends on whether it is spoken or written as well. In my theatre class, a group of actors recently translated a script into Spanish from English. The director of the piece did the translation, and then asked native Spanish speakers to go over it and make the necessary corrections. When the script came back, it was covered in corrections. The director asked what she had done wrong, and she was told nothing. Her translation was fine. It was just that the way people speak and the way people write are very different. Spanish has its own spoken nuances, and therefore the script changed as the words needed to be spoken, not read.
Sierra Tamkun
Poudre High School, USA
Going back to what Mr. Pseudonym said, I don't think a native speaker can completely learn a language, let alone a non-native speaker. This is becuase when it comes to a language, it isn't the same for every country or region that uses it. There are always multiple dialects that develop which cause words to either have different meanings or be none existent in different cultures. For example, though I might have a pretty good understanding of the English language where I live, there are probably 1000s of words that are unfamiliar to me in England, even though the same language is technically spoken there. The meaning of a language also changes with different generations. I doubt anybody used 'sick' or 'sweet' to describe something cool back in the 1920's and we don't really say 'swell' anymore, now do we? My point is, complete understanding of a language would be possible if it was universal. Becuase that is never the case, I don't think it's ever possible for anyone (native speakers or non-native speakers) to fully understand a language. The best we can do is get as close as we can.
Just so you know:
Rebecca Mitchell
Poudre High School, USA
Hmm...interesting question. From my experience, I can honestly say that I don't think I'll ever understand Spanish, even though I've taken it for 5 years in school now. Within any language, there are so many idiosyncrasies (like slang, use of pronouns, expressions, etc.) that it would take years to even begin to comprehend them, especially since some do not match up with one's native language at all. Take for example in my Spanish class. A couple weeks ago, we learned about certain expressions in Spanish that differ from our own. One was "Solo estoy tomando el pelo," which literally translates to "I'm only pulling your hair," and it is used just like the English "I'm just pulling your leg." Hair and leg? How did those ever get mixed up? I'm sure this applies in many other languages, as well, and things really get hard when pronunciation is dragged into the picture. Also, building on what Rachel said, you're not really catching the fine details of the language: you're speaking your native language in your mind and translating it over to the second language by using the words you've been taught to associate the second language words to in your own language (sorry if that didn't make any sense whatsoever). You may be missing the real meaning of the word because it was just assigned it's closest counterpart in your language. However, I think if you study that other language for long enough, you will start to understand it, maybe even fully much later in life. So yes, I do believe that non-native speakers can eventually understand another language, but it takes quite a while, and with the attention span of most people these days, it's not very likely to happen.
Clementine Stowe
Poudre High School, USA
I think that non native speakers can understand another language to a certain extent. We may understand the word someone may be trying get across but its full meaning isn't fully absorbed. What is really lost in translation I think is what I said before, which is true meaning. That is what we are trying to get across.
i think that you can not master a second language because the way you exprees yourself in your first language will not be the same in your second language. i learned this through my spanish class. i am an english speaker that is hispanic but i do not understand spanish at all. (which is sad) i think that learning a language has to happen with teaching and exposure to the people and culture of the language you are learning. You need to have immense exposure in order to learn the way the language is spoken by the people of the country. Without the exposure you may never be able to fully understand the language and therefore a lot is lost in translation.
Curie Metro HS
Chicago, IL
USA
Well, in my opinion a second language can not truely be mastered. For the fact that a native speaker of english thinks in english. So take me for example I've been taking spanish for four years and when I see spanish i think in english about what it means. My emotions and feeling are in english so i could never have that emotional background with the second language. Also, when learning a language the basic is learned, but as in english a sentence can mean a complete different thing with just a change of tense or tone, and if we don't recognize that change we don't fully interpret the language correctly.
Dewayne Perkins
Curie High School
Chicago, IL, USA
i think that a non native speaker cant really understand a second language as well as their first. even if we may think we understand the language because we learned how to speak it, we will only understand it to some extent.
I believe that understanding something is beyond the understanding of the language. it is more about relating to what the sutiation is. Translation would really take away from the understanding but everyone is their own person and therefore will translate on their own regardless. got to go
I believe once we adapt to our first language, it is hard for us to understand second or third language. That is because we cannot get rid of the cultures that we learned before. It is a mess if cultures mix together
I believe that non-native speakers can understand another language to a large extent. Immigrating from Poland at a young age with little knowledge of the English language, I never thought I'd be able to learn it. However, I soon discovered this to be wrong. If you put your mind to it, you can truly learn another language.
Katarzyna Kalata
Curie
Chicago, IL
I believe once we adapt to our first language, it is hard for us to understand second or third language. That is because we cannot get rid of the cultures that we learned before. It is a mess if cultures mix together.
Shu Chen
Curie Metr. High School
Chicago, il U.S.A
I believe that a non native speaker can understand another language. I currently speak 2 languages fluently and understand the both perfectly. (Spanish and English) Of course I did learn these languages at a young age and I don't not know how I would react to a new language at this age.
Ricky Valdez
Curie Metr. High School
Chicago, il U.S.A
Personally I think that no one can master a language at all. Language changes so rapidly from year to year. We may not be able to see it but every year there are new words. "Cool" a couple years ago was a new word. Then it became the regular slang. Now I see it being used in regular language by the most intellectual people I know. Words are created and words are dropped. Even the syntax of our sentenses change. (Ex. Old English-->Classical English-->Modern English) So can anyone possibly MASTER a language?
Paul Krysik
Curie Metro
Chicago, IL USA
I believe the non native language speakers can, at some point, be on the same level as the native language speakers in terms of their ability to read, write, think, and process their thoughts with ease, and without having to translate into their primary language in order to understand it. English is not my first language, and i might not be able to speak it perfectly, but i can certainly utilize it at the standard of most of the english speakers.
xieliang huang
curie
Chicago, IL. USA
All of your comments are really enlightening. I really enjoy and thank all of the people that posted from Curie High School. It was really interesting getting a different perspective on questions.
It seems after reading all of your comments that the real question is when languages are learned. I do agree that the "true" meaning of a word may be lost in translation, but at what age? As stated in other comments the age at which you learn languages and the environment plays a big role in a person's understanding of a "true" meaning.
I do not know two languages so I will take on a hypothetical situation.
What if there is a person that was born and grew up in two different cultures? The person may live in one culture, like Chinatown, for three days and in another, Little Italy the rest of the week. I would believe that this person would grow up learning the slang and understand fully the "true" meaning of both worlds. Do you agree or disagree? Explain your rationale.
Then take another example of differences in language. People who have different accents. I know quite a few people that have been born in the Southern region of the USA and have moved to another region of the USA. What is interesting about them is that they can easily speak in the regions accent and then switch almost automatically when exposed to another region's accent. In this case, technically the language is the same, but the pronunciation is different and maybe even the words. Is this so different from understanding different languages?
Exg: Using a word to describe carbonated beverages. In Florida they use the word "coke," while in Colorado they use "pop." This label is different but the object is the same.
Poudre High School
I think we can get to a point where we understand a language when we reach the point where we think in that other language. I have been learning French for a very long time and I picked up a French magazine and started reading it without realising it was French, when you get to the point where you are no longer conscience off a translation then I think you can truly be said to understand the language. ( my brother asked to read it and asked why I had been reading in French - but I just hadn't noticed that it was French)
We talked about this in ToK recently because we were reading Jean-Dominique Bauby's The Diving Bell and the Butterfly which was originally in French and about Bauby's time when he was suffering from "locked-in syndrome". The only movement he could do was blink his left eye, and that is how he communicated. So many things that he wanted to say was lost because some people didn't know his system of communicating or he forgot what he wanted to say because it took a long time to spell out the words.
To talk about this in class, my teacher brought up how advertisements in the United States can't always work because of translation. An example she gave was a pepsi slogan. In the United States it was "Come alive with Pepsi!". In China, it said "Pepsi brings your ancestors back!" Also, when I was in France recently, some of the things in the hotel rooms were also in English and one thing said "If you have a problem, call us. If we do not respond to your request in 15 minutes, you will be our guest". Which makes no sense.
Non-native speakers also have a hard time with idioms, because what may be said in their country is different from what is said in another. Because it's not the same, they may take it literally. A lot of meaning is lost in translation, and that is why it is so hard to do for books and other things.
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